Curse

Weezer_Blue · Jul 26, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

badger badger badger badger badger badger badger...

wait.... there's a topic?

Mithie · Jul 26, 2005, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Solution: Make spirits spells, cost 15 energy, decrease the radius by 1/2, and cause exhaustion. The end. This way, you can still cast them; just not spam them.

-z|o- · Jul 26, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Spirit spam could probably be fixed with DP the way it used to be back in the betas.

Lorelei · Jul 26, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonJLore

yo dude, dude! if your predicaton is for it to be a successful strategy game, go play Rome: Total War.

Rome:Totalwar is a let down, they don't even attempt to balance anything. Let me just shut up because I could start now ranting about R:TW and never stop.

Tellani Artini · Jul 26, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Solution: Make spirits spells, cost 15 energy, decrease the radius by 1/2, and cause exhaustion. The end. This way, you can still cast them; just not spam them.

If you want to nerf rituals to the point of uselessness, sure. I guarantee you would never see a ritual used in PvP if all those changes were implemented. If you only increased the energy cost, or only made them cause exhaustion (kind of like the old DP way, but somewhat less permanent), maybe you'd be on to something. The range of a spirit is necessary, and would become even more necessary if the rate of spirit-laying were limited in the above ways.

What they really need to do is bring back the 100 damage edge of extinction that made all arena battles end up as draws

Luggage · Jul 26, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Earlier it only stripped top enchants/hexes right? Would making the depth it strips depend on attribute work as a nerf?
0: only make casting twice as long
4: strip one level
8: strip two levels
12: strip three...

or something?

Mithie · Jul 26, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

If you want to nerf rituals to the point of uselessness, sure. I guarantee you would never see a ritual used in PvP if all those changes were implemented. If you only increased the energy cost, or only made them cause exhaustion (kind of like the old DP way, but somewhat less permanent), maybe you'd be on to something. The range of a spirit is necessary, and would become even more necessary if the rate of spirit-laying were limited in the above ways.

What they really need to do is bring back the 100 damage edge of extinction that made all arena battles end up as draws

Actually I was just being bitter with a hint of sarcasm. Seriously though, the simple act of making all spirits interruptable spells would solve a lot of the problems.

Nash · Jul 26, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Bring back DP for spirits?

Kishin · Jul 26, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Actually I was just being bitter with a hint of sarcasm. Seriously though, the simple act of making all spirits interruptable spells would solve a lot of the problems.

Not really. Most groups will have the important spirits laid before the other team even gets in range, and may even have multiple copies of the more vital ones like Renewal.

Mithie · Jul 26, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

Not really. Most groups will have the important spirits laid before the other team even gets in range, and may even have multiple copies of the more vital ones like Renewal.

Making them spells prevents the ranger from spamming them. He'll still be able to throw one or two down in the beginning of the match, but it'll be much, much harder to maintain them, and make all the anti-spirit strats work 100% better.

Diomedes · Jul 26, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Making them spells prevents the ranger from spamming them.

How so? I see people spamming spells all the time (like RoF, Wastel's, etc). I'm not saying that spamming spells is a good idea, but I do see it happen constantly.

[quote]
He'll still be able to throw one or two down in the beginning of the match, but it'll be much, much harder to maintain them, and make all the anti-spirit strats work 100% better.[quote]

I still don't see why it'd be harder to maintain them. Just put down another. Oh did you get interrupted? Oath shot and try again.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable here, you might have a good idea, but I just don't see it, can you elaborate?

-Diomedes

Sarus · Jul 26, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

How so? I see people spamming spells all the time (like RoF, Wastel's, etc). I'm not saying that spamming spells is a good idea, but I do see it happen constantly.

RoF has a 0.25 second cast time. Spirits have 5 second "cast" times.

Mithie · Jul 26, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diomedes

I'm not trying to be disagreeable here, you might have a good idea, but I just don't see it, can you elaborate?

-Diomedes

5 seconds is a LONGGGG time to cast, and against any decent team, you won't have that 5 second window. And when you finally find that 5 second window, chances are the match is decided already.

Diomedes · Jul 26, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

RoF has a 0.25 second cast time. Spirits have 5 second "cast" times.

Yes but.... If people can be considered to /spam/ it now, why will making it into a spell change people from spamming it?

And may I add, since you just made it into a spell, now I can glyph of concentration it, or heck, glyph of sacrifice + oath shot it. Why not?

-Diomedes

Mithie · Jul 26, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diomedes

Yes but.... If people can be considered to /spam/ it now, why will making it into a spell change people from spamming it?

There are a heck of a lot of ways to interrupt spells.

Quote:

And may I add, since you just made it into a spell, now I can glyph of concentration it, or heck, glyph of sacrifice + oath shot it. Why not?

-Diomedes

[/quote]

Then you're more restricive, and you STILL won't be able to spam it, like slamming down spirits every 5 seconds.

EmperorTippy · Jul 26, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luggage

Earlier it only stripped top enchants/hexes right? Would making the depth it strips depend on attribute work as a nerf?
0: only make casting twice as long
4: strip one level
8: strip two levels
12: strip three...

or something?

Interesting. I think that this could be looked at and may work.

I'm just throwing this out there but maybe NR could be made so that when it ENDS normaly (not killed but time runs out on it's life) the enchant/hex stripping effect takes effect. That would be at least 30 seconds to deal with the spirit or get the effect of your already used enchants/hexes somewhat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Wow. Lots of angry pissed off IQ people....as usual.

Anyway, Isn't the problem with NR and other spirit spamming just in the fact that they're spammed constantly? Maybe making Oath Shot not work on spirits? Because I think nerfing any spirit would make them useless for anyone that isnt using skills like Oath Shot or Serpent's Quickness to spam them.

Fix the "loophole" not nerf the skill itself.

I'm not in iQ and I'm angry and pissed off as well.

Tellani Artini · Jul 26, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Actually I was just being bitter with a hint of sarcasm. Seriously though, the simple act of making all spirits interruptable spells would solve a lot of the problems.

Hard to tell, I've heard worse suggestions for spirit balance from people that were serious about it

Rituals as spells just plain doesn't fit, and simply broadening the range of interrupts and counters seems to miss the point. Rituals can be interrupted already by rangers, warriors, and mesmers that are equipped to do so. Isn't that how it should be? Shouldn't a team, seeing rituals as dominant in the metagame, come prepared with counters to rituals? I'm not saying the rituals are balanced, but I'm quite sure that people aren't making full use of the available interrupts. Wild blow == GG balanced stance/mantra of resolve.

But is interrupting/stopping the ritualist really the solution to ritual balance? It won't stop oath shot's insane effect on spirit-laying rate. Fertile season and a full set of spirits can be in place before you're even close enough to engage, in any PvP scenario. It only takes about 25 seconds to block one entrance entirely at the temple of grenth. I think it just needs to become impractical to lay multiple flavors of spirits at the silly rate they're being laid in tombs.

cpukilla · Jul 26, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I like that tiered approach to renewal, just make it work like rend, 0-4 enchants removed at attribute 16. Then change the enchant removers to ~15 second recharge except for rend. Maybe add a 1-2 point dp for spirits to prevent spam but allowing some use without major penalty. Then take the healing off ether renewal, make zealots fire last 30 seconds instead of 60, and it will be playable at least. Still a lot of other skills that could use tweaking, and tons that are worthless that should be buffed. But the changes to enchantment removal are the most vital.

Tellani Artini · Jul 26, 2005, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Divine boon and draw conditions ought to have recharge times, for one thing. I don't think either will be any less effective at their intended role with a 1-2s cooldown. Zealot's fire at 60 seconds isn't the problem.. is it?

Diomedes · Jul 26, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

But is interrupting/stopping the ritualist really the solution to ritual balance? It won't stop oath shot's insane effect on spirit-laying rate.

IIRC, cry of frustration has a recharge time that matches oath shot, hence you could keep NR down with it (although not all of the other spirits). However, far more learned people than I have apparently not been using it to interrupt NR as is.

I would guess that this is because it is typically a stronger position to be controlling game play than to be reacting to it. For the same reason, I do not think that making it into a spell will help the matter much.

As people seem to get flamed pretty easily for posting on this thread, I'll choose my words carefully here. I think that taking an very powerful ability and making a counter for it is not as good as nerfing it IMO. The problem (as I understand it from following the discussion) is that a single build is dominating the meta game. Changing it so that there is a counter means that the build is still dominating the meta game (although you now have more build options than before). Nerfing an ability that is too powerful is how I see fixing the meta, IMO.

-Diomedes